Humor As A Superpower

What if the most underrated leadership skill isn't emotional intelligence, executive presence, or strategic thinking — it's a sense of humor?

Paul Osincup spent 15 years researching exactly that. He's a keynote speaker, author of The Humor Habit, and host of the Laugh or Death podcast — and his work with Google, Harvard, and hundreds of other organizations makes a case that humor isn't a soft skill. It's a survival skill.

In this episode, we dig into what it actually means to live and lead in a VUCA world — volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous — and why humor might be the most direct path to resilience, connection, and psychological safety on your team.

What we cover:
Why laughter nosedives at age 23 and doesn't recover until nearly 80 — and what that costs us

Humorous reappraisal: the Stanford-backed technique for reframing setbacks (even grief)

The DOSE chemicals humor releases — and why shared laughter creates real trust

A Berkeley study that shows strangers who laugh together like each other more — immediately

The humor triangle: which types of humor build connection vs. which ones blow it up

Why self-deprecating humor is low-risk — unless you're a surgeon joking about being clumsy

The 4 P's: Permission + Participation = Psychological Safety
The "humor jar" — a dead-simple team ritual to double the ROI of funny moments

One 7-day habit that increased happiness and reduced depressive symptoms for up to six months

Paul also shares the story of losing his mom — and how finding humor in even that moment changed his relationship with resilience. It's the most honest thing in this episode.
The quote that started this conversation: "Don't live your life as an actor in a drama just to reach the end and find out you were the director — and it could have been a comedy."
Connect with Paul:
🌐 thehumorhabit.com
📚 The Humor Habit — available wherever books are sold
🎙️ Laugh or Death Podcast
Connect with Rex & The HumanUp Imperative:
🌐 [RWC Consulting website]
🎙️ Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts

The HumanUp Imperative explores the human skills — connection, leadership, trust, and relationships — that technology can't replace.
#HumanUp #Leadership #HumorAtWork #PsychologicalSafety #TheHumorHabit #PaulOsincup #VUCA #Resilience #WorkplaceCulture #LeadershipDevelopment

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

In a world increasingly shaped by technology, the human up imperative explores the significance of human connection with each other, with the communities we serve, and perhaps most importantly, with ourselves. Join Rex Wallace and his guests as they discuss the ever-important role of authentic, meaningful connection in healthcare. It's time to human up.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Hey everyone. At the end of season one, Jamie Masters asked about our planned topics for season two. I listed a few and asked what we were missing. Bern Orton, another guest, um former guest, responded with this. He said, I think the power of finding humor in the VUCA is wildly underrated. And my immediate reactions were, that sounds like a great topic. Humor is how I handle, you know, life's difficulties. And I have no clue what VUCA means. Um, I had no idea. I had to look it up. I wasn't even entirely sure how to pronounce it. Um, and for the other one or two people who might not know, it's an acronym for volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. It's a term that describes a turbulent, unpredictable world that I think we can all relate to right now. So I thought, yeah, that's a perfect topic. But who in the world is going to be our guest? Stefan, our producer, went on a quest to find the perfect guest. And guess what? He found him. This man is a keynote speaker, author of the best-selling book The Humor Habit, which I have right here, um, and host of the Laugh or Death podcast. His work with hundreds of organizations like Google and the Harvard Kennedy School of Leadership has been highlighted on the Today Show, The New York Times, and on his mom's refrigerator. Um, please join me as we hum it up with Paul Ozencup. Paul, thanks so much for being here.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Ah, thank you. Thanks, Rex, and thanks for that that great introduction. That's uh that's the nicest introduction I've ever written. So it's always the weird part about those things. It's like you're like standing there waiting to take the stage, and it's like this person's done this and this, or like on a podcast, and it's like, we all know you wrote that, dude.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Well, well, well, tell us more. Like for um for our listeners who might not know you who haven't picked up your book yet or listened to your podcast yet, what's you know, may maybe unpack a little bit more of your your story for them so they know a little bit more about you.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Well, yeah, yeah. I, you know, I started my career um working with college students with uh mental health issues, um, a very serious job, mental health and substance use issues and that kind of thing. On the side, I lived this secret double life where I was doing stand-up and improv comedy, and I just always and I started researching uh how I felt like humor really helps me in my life in a lot of different ways. And I saw that it helped me with uh, you know, supervising my team, connecting with students I was working with, all this stuff. So I really started nerding out about it, and uh it became this kind of nerdy obsession. Uh, I started giving some presentations on the on the power of humor, what it does for us uh in terms of our own well-being and our ability to perform professionally as well. And one thing led to another. Now it's like 15 years later, and I'm doing this kind of humor nerd thing for a living. Wrote a book, I give a lot of keynote talks on it, and uh, and I still perform stand-up uh and improv uh all the time.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

So it's it's it's awesome. I I uh humor's a big part of of who I am um to my um to my team's detriment, right? But uh and probably to a lot of people's detriment, but but it's an important part of uh you know definitely how I've always you know gotten gotten through life. So I love that you've that you're kind of proselytizing this and and you're able to to do it full-time, you know, your passion, and it's not like a side, a side hobby any longer. Yeah. When I started, oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

I like I like the thought of that I'm proselytizing it, like humor Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

It's just a funny uh thought about there.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Like, I need to come up with that uh ten commandments of humor is what I need to come up with now.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yes, yes. You know, one of the funniest books I ever read was the um The Year of Living Biblically um by AJ AJ Jacobs.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

Oh, I haven't read that. I'm gonna write that down.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

He's like the human guinea pig, right? So he he does these things for a year and then he writes a book about it, but he he tried to live every every aspect of the Bible, um, every kind of command in there. Um, and it is hysterical, actually.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

I think I I think I have heard of that now that you I I think I've seen so uh that's awesome. I'm gonna I'm gonna check that out. That sounds that sounds hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

It's it's a it's a great one. When I when I started researching you, one of the first things I saw was a quote that you had written or said that said, um, don't live your life as an actor in a drama just to reach the end to find out that you were the director, and it could have been a comedy. Um, I I love this. I love the concept that you know that people are cast in in dramas that they never auditioned for, how we and how we have more control over the genre of the movie that we're in than we might otherwise believe, right? Or or think. When did you realize you were still playing a character in in a drama that you didn't want to be in and kind of what what snapped you out of it?

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Well, I there have been many times in my life when I've realized that. And even still knowing what I know now and doing the work that I do, there are moments where I'm like, man, I am taking this moment or this thing in my life way too seriously. I I'll give you a couple uh quick examples. I remember when I I remember when I was like eight or nine years old, my family all got together on the weekend and went bowling, and my family never really did family stuff together like that. And so I and I I remember my sister beat me in bowling, and I was a very competitive little guy, and uh and I threw a fit, and while I didn't connect to that quote, obviously, then I remember I like I threw a fit, I stormed out of the bowling alley, and then my family, you know, I and I remember realizing like I ruined this whole day that my family rarely does this stuff. And that was, I think, the first memory I have of being like, what is my deal? Why am I taking this so seriously? Um, fast forward to uh say when I first started doing the work I'm doing now, and I'm trying to make a name for myself, you know, and uh trying to do this full time, I got this great opportunity to go speak at this huge conference in Boston. Uh and there's gonna be all these Fortune 500 companies there. So I was dialed in, like I was like very serious. I was gonna give my business card to everybody, and I'm like, all right, you know, uh I was not gonna let this moment pass without me really using it to my advantage. And so I was just taking it so seriously. And every person that I I made eye contact with, you know, here's a business card, love to talk with you. Hey, here, my name is Paul. And this one executive starts to walk off, and I go, hey, uh, hold on a second. I reach in my coat pocket and I hand him my hotel room key. And uh he looks at me and goes, Oh, that escalated quickly. And I was like, Oh God, no. And I was so embarrassed. And and I remember in the moment, my neck got red, my face got red, and I just I just was flooded with embarrassment and thinking to myself, like, you idiot, what what have you done? You just cost yourself. That guy's never gonna call you. You made a total ass out of yourself, like, and walking off, still beating my, and I don't know why I was beating myself up about it so much, like he was a nice guy and and he kept our room clean. But uh, but that was a moment where then later I was telling someone that story, and it was much later, and I and they were laughing, and I'm like, yeah, that was funny. But in the moment, my brain was telling a different story. My brain was making it like I was the lead actor in this drama, and it's like, oh now I'm never gonna get uh I'm never gonna be able to work with that guy. He'll never contact me. What have I done? I'm ruining this opportunity. When it's really like sometimes those little things that happen in our lives are just uh funny features on the way to whatever other thing that we're doing, and we can we can rewire our brain to see it that way more often.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

You uh you had um an episode on your podcast on grief that I actually listened to the other day. And you yeah, you you you and I've heard this before. Um, the the the the thought or the concept that what pain plus time equals humor, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yeah, yeah. Humor equals co uh comedy equals tragedy plus time.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Tragedy plus time, right? So yeah, your your tragedy, it's hard to see it in the moment, right? But um, but you were able to see it later at least. But I it sounded like people helped you do that when they when they laughed when you told the story. Sure. They knew it was funny, you just didn't think it was funnier.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Yeah. Well, and I think for and I think for most of us, uh maybe our our brain isn't wired uh some of the time to see the humor like in real time all the time, but we can change that. So uh uh for example, one one thing uh that we can do, it it actually is very helpful for us to look back at stressful or negative or even traumatic events and try to uh reframe them with humor. It's called humorous reappraisal. And uh Stanford uh Department of Psychology has has studied this and found that it actually does a great job in uh increasing our overall positive emotions and decreasing negative emotions, even more so than regular cognitive reappraisal, doing it with doing it with humor. Um and the act of doing this uh humorous reappraisal, you you might think to, after a negative situation occurs, uh you might think to do it a couple days later, then maybe a day later, then maybe a few hours later, until eventually you're starting your brain is starting to get hardwired and make humorous connections in the moment right away.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

So it yeah, it becomes sort of part of the process that your brain goes through when you have a bad event, and then you immediately start thinking, okay, how can I reframe this into something not quite so bad, right? Maybe something funny. I'm I'm curious, is this something you've ever done with an organization, like with a team? Like as a so I I I'm imagining like you're leading a big pro or a team is working on a big project, maybe the project doesn't go so well, right? You know, we we have what we call a post-mortem, like a like a debrief after the project is done or after some big thing fails, and trying to look back, you know, as sort of Monday morning quarterback and say, what should we have done differently? But I've never really thought about weaving a reframing into that as well to make that meeting maybe not quite so horrific or so hellish, right? But have you ever done that formally?

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Yeah, I mean, the uh with organizations for sure, sometimes not necessarily post-mortems, but there there are a lot of organizations that will do postmortems and they will incorporate some types of humor into that, like give um awards for kind of a biggest fail that that really uh helps drive innovation so that people aren't scared to take risks or you come up with new ideas. Uh, and so that kind of stuff it definitely does help. Um and then when when I've worked with organizations, I've taken people through uh exercises where they will think of a time when even with within their team that they've maybe made a mountain out of a molehill and they wish they could have maybe handled it with a little levity or uh found the humor in in real time. And I remember there was this one woman who uh she there was uh an off-site team luncheon, and everyone got invited to the team luncheon, and at the last minute there was an email that went out and said, Hey, we're we're going to a different place. And that email went out to everyone except her accidentally. She ended up on the other side of town while the rest of the team went and ate lunch, and she was really upset about it. And it was, it was kind of no one's fault, it was a total accident. Um, but she recalled really being uh upset and kind of holding a grievance and to the point that when she got back to the office, uh she gave all her colleagues the silent treatment and was really upset about it. And she's like, I wish I could have just handled that with some levity, you know. And so her reframe, you know, like she kind of played the what I could have said game, her reframes were like, I wish I would have come back and been like, well, that made splitting the check a lot easier. Or uh, well, thank you. That's the first hour I've had to myself in 20 years. Um by doing that, even if you what you come up with doesn't crack you up, you're starting to, for one, uh uh take the power away from that negative situation, um, and not give it so much power over you and let go of this grievance and anger that maybe you could hold on to for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, I like that a lot. I think um, yeah, and I love what you're saying about you know making that sort of part of the process and doing that um train training yourself to to be able to start doing that when something bad happens. Because we always like I look back all the time and and think, oh, I wish I would have said this when this person said that. Maybe something funny that I shouldn't have taken so personally or something like that, right? And yeah, but but unless you are thinking that way after the fact, you're uh you're you're probably never going to change the way you you you act in the moment, right? But maybe you will by by training yourself like that.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Well, and it the other thing that it does is it cues your brain the next time you're feeling that emotion that you're aggravated or really annoyed. You you might not have the perfect humorous response to it, but you're but you might uh cognitively know like, uh, I need to take this with a grain of salt, and there's probably humor in this, and it takes that freak out level like from a nine to a six, you know? Exactly. Uh and thinking like, oh, there I'm sure there's humor in this situation somewhere. That because eventually, when you're doing various exercises, I've got a bunch of kind of habits in my book that you can do to rewire your brain. And when you're doing those, eventually what happens is something would happen during your day that normally would aggravate you or annoy you. And you'll think to yourself, I'll be writing this down later, or I'll be trying to find the humor in this later. And even just that is your brain acknowledging, like, hey, don't freak out. There's probably humor in this situation, even if you're not laughing yet.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah. And in you in the in the book, when you talk about this, you you actually say that you know, humor makes you yeah, more of an optimist, right? Makes you more satisfied with your job, more resilient, um, you experience less stress. And I can see, you know, that this is uh especially important in this VUCA world that we're living in today, right now, especially, right? But um, how does how does humor make you more of an optimist? And how do you kind of how do you how do you help yourself get into that position, that mindset?

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, I've I've always been uh really interested in optimism and and positivity. Uh and I was actually going to research and write my book on the power of optimism, but then I thought, what good will that do? Uh but uh but uh uh always with the jokes. Um but um I I I think that the the way that humor helps us uh stay optimistic is actually directly tied in with its power to um uh boost our resilience. Because when we know, when we know that we can find humor in almost anything, we know we can get through almost anything. And so when the next wave of whatever that VUCA brings us comes, it's like, hey, I've already gotten through this, you know. So like I I'm almost looking forward to seeing, all right, bring up bring on what's next. I know that I can manage this next wave because not only did I get through the the last wave, I I surfed it and had fun while doing it. Um and I I'll I'll give you I will go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Were you gonna say something? Uh no, we you you finished and I I've got something related, but yeah, finish your thought first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

I I'll give you an example um of a kind of a deeper thing that that happened with me this past year. Okay. Um is when my mom died. Okay. And uh my and this is my first parent to die. I have been very close with my mom, and it was kind of unexpected. Um and so I was there. Uh I was there at the hospital with her, with my sister, my stepdad. Um, she she passed away. They gave us the room to ourselves to say our goodbyes. And so we were there alone with her. And about 10 minutes after she passed, um, we were just grieving, and all of a sudden the doors burst open, and a nurse's aide comes in and goes, I've got lunch here for Deborah. And in the moment, I was like definitely not finding that funny. And I think I jumped into kind of like being protective of my family, and so I shoot him out. I'm like, this is not a good time, you know, go get out of here. And it actually really kind of made me upset. And I was processing this with my sisters later, um, who are both nurses. And I was like, how does a hospital, you know, let that happen? Like we're just like uh, you know, to be trying to bring her food and all this kind of stuff. And um, and you know, you'd think they'd have a better uh system for privacy. Like uh me and my college roommates had a better system for privacy than that, you know, and put a sock on the doorknob or something. But uh, but uh uh then we started kind of playing that what I could have said game, like, well, what if like that was a very dramatic situation in my life. What if that same scene happened and and the movie was a comedy? What would the lead actor in that comedy have done? What could I have said in that moment? And so me and my sister started kind of playing that game. And you know, he comes in with, you know, we've got lunch here for Deborah. And it's like, yeah, you know, they said if it wasn't here before she died, it's free. Or uh, or we've got lunch here for Deborah, lunch, you see what breakfast did to her? Um, because it doesn't even matter if if that makes me laugh necessarily or someone else laugh, by reframing that, it gives me this perspective that I never had before that that lets me say, okay, uh this moment that happened in my in uh in my life, yes, that I could be really upset about it forever. Um, but it could reframe it to what that moment also could be, which is a really funny, quirky moment at the end of my mom's life that she probably would have found hilarious. Right. Um, and so by doing that um and seeing that, like, man, I can get through that. And one of the hardest things I thought that I'd I would have to go through is my mom dying with as close as I've I've been to her. And by getting through that moment, and then even being able to reframe that moment with a little bit of levity, helps me be optimistic that, you know what, whatever the future holds, I'm gonna be able to get through it. I've got this reserve of resilience uh within me that I am able to surf the waves as as they come uh with even with a lot of levity.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Are your are your sisters naturally funny too?

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah, I mean they're they're they're pretty funny. Um all of us kind of have this crazy balance. I think, like a lot of people, that we can be very funny and take ourselves and our lives and our work very seriously. And and that's why this has always been so interesting to me. And that's why, you know, I there's a there's a lot written about how good humor is for you, but that's why I wanted to write a book that's about how can you develop your sense of humor to to live lighter, because I really do uh take life very seriously. Uh, and I want to know how to like shed some of that chronic seriousness and let some of that go.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, and that was actually the question I was gonna ask was uh earlier was um I I because I know the answer to this because I've read your book, and but um people that say, but I'm not I'm not funny, right? Like this is something you can get better at. You don't have to be born a born comedian, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Right, yeah. You know, if you're listening to this and you're thinking to yourself, yeah, this is all great, but I'm not really that funny, uh, you're probably right. Okay. But you are self-aware, which is way more important and humble. Um no, I I I think there I think I think being funny uh and humor in general is like any other skill, like playing a musical instrument, learning a foreign language. Some people are born with a proclivity for it. Like it's just like, wow, you're really naturally good at that. And other people, uh, it's something they could learn with practice. Yeah. Um, but maybe it doesn't come natural. Uh being funny is that same way. Anybody can learn to be funny. There are systematic ways to do that. Um, but also it's just like learning any new skill in our brain. We are uh uh creating neural pathways. And just like just like learning a musical instrument or a foreign language, it's like when you first start to learn a new habit, it feels like that neural pathway feels like a Dirt road at first. It's like a very clumsy. It's like, boy, I'm not really great at this. Um, then the more you do it, that road becomes paved and it goes a little bit quicker. And then the more you do it, it's like a super highway. You are now hardwired for humor and you are seeing the funny in things as it comes.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah, my you you talked about your sisters and and your mom. So my my dad died in 2016, so 10 years ago. Um, my mom had died in 1999, right? So 26, 27 years ago now. Um, he was remarried and uh we when when he died, my I have a brother and sister, right? So younger brother, bigger, and older sister. And the three of us are at our stepmom's house, and we're going through his closet because she's like, Hey, can y'all please just take anything you you want, right? Like his clothes, like sweaters and things like that, and hats. And so we're we're going through it, and we're um just you know, thank the gods that we were able to do it together because it was fun. We we actually were laughing and going through like talking about his different things that he wore, and and uh there wasn't a single item we were like, oh, I want that, no, I want that. Like it was nothing like that, right? It was all just oh you should take this, and and it was just one of the most memorable um like moments and in in such a I feel like an important way that we processed what had just happened to him, right? And yeah, but but because we were and we are all three, I feel like you know, humor is a part of our lives, right? And it was with him too, and his and his dad, my grandfather. I can still remember my grandfather when I was a teenager, I'm in a nursing home visiting him. Yeah, and he and he is sneaking up behind women in wheelchairs and and pushing them without them knowing, and they're like, Why am I moving? And you know, just playing he's constantly playing pranks on people, right? And and uh I feel like I don't I don't do that qu I've gotten a little too serious, I feel like, older in life.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

And I think I think it's one thing at a nurse and go, it's another thing if you just snuck up behind women and pushed them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

It doesn't, you know, in the office it doesn't go so well.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah, exactly. Sorry, Cindy. Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yeah, yeah. But but but just this whole conversation reading your book is it's making me realize the importance of kind of pulling pulling that back into my life. My team's not gonna be happy, but you know, but um but I it's gonna be important for me, and that's all that matters, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Well well, and I I think the um one of the key um uh uh pieces of research is uh is uh Gallup's World Happiness Survey. Um and and I think the reason I have a job is because of of this, is that um they found that we are uh uh uh our propensity to laugh absolutely nosedives when we hit age 23. And we don't start gaining those laughs back again until we're nearly 80. So this is like a almost a 60-year period of chronic seriousness where we are limiting our own access to a resilience tool that's built into the human psyche because uh, you know, why and and age 23, uh, that's about the time we start going to work. And it's like I gotta buckle down and get more leads and get more sales and you know, all that kind of stuff. And uh and and so we start to really think like, you know, when do I have time for levity or humor or that kind of stuff? Or it just naturally kind of just fades because we're focused on other things.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah, and and so we've we've kind of established how important it is for you know us as individuals. I let's I'd like to get in a little bit into um how it can play a role in sort of connective tissue with teams, right? So this thought that a sense of humor can help with connection with other people, team team engagement. So many of our listeners have a role where they lead or they participate in a cross-functional program within an organization um around quality improvement. And and it means that that um that you know, we talk a lot, our team talks a lot. I talk a lot about in order to really execute on a program, a cross-functional program, you have to have trust in between people, right? You have to between teams. You'll never be able to be you'll never have a high performing program if you don't have trust between the people that make up the connective tissue. And not just trust, but just you know, a good good engagement. And I do think this sense of humor, so a couple things. One, or actually, we'll just start with this. I heard in one of your podcasts that um you cited a survey where um they surveyed a lot of employees and said what what are the the most important characteristics of a leader? Yeah, and the top two were work ethic, and right behind it was sense of humor, which pleasantly surprised me. But yeah, can you can you maybe talk about the importance of just sense of humor in building camaraderie across teams inside an organization? I know you've done work with a lot of big companies and curious kind of what you found.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Well, the that that um surveys, the Bell Leadership Institute did that, and yeah, the work ethic and sense of humor were cited twice as much as any other trait or characteristic. And uh, and to me, that makes perfect sense because we want someone who gets their stuff done and is reliable, sure, you know, um, but also that like uh gets it and doesn't take themselves or the the work too seriously. Um so that it makes perfect logical sense to me. I think um anytime we're talking about bringing the team together, using humor um in a in a work setting, always gotta start with the the leadership first. If the leader doesn't buy in, then and it's just like any culture initiative, uh, leadership needs to buy in. So I think the first thing like a leader can do is uh practice some of the the you know, some of the habits or things like that just to try to add a little own levity to their own leadership style and to participate in some of the things they set out for their for their team. But by having uh humor as a part of what you do in the workplace, whether it's before or after meetings, um uh engaging things for people to do throughout the week, uh letting people try new things, that kind of stuff, and and just laugh and have this camaraderie, you are building uh trust and rapport with people. There's another um research out of the Greater Goods Center at Berkeley. Um, they had people come in, strangers come in uh to a room. They weren't allowed to talk to each other uh and they just watched videos. People who watched a serious or a neutral video, um, and then they also had people who watched funny videos. The people who watched the funny videos and laughed next to the stranger reported far higher levels of liking that other person in the room with them. And it's because when we laugh, uh there's a there's a dose of chemicals that flood our brains, making us happier and less stressed. And by dose, I literally mean DOSE, dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins flood our brain. And oxytocin is the uh uh chemical that's responsible for our connection with other people. So, of course, those people feel more connected with one another. Plus, when we're when we have shared laughter, it means that there's like some kind of empathy. It's like, oh, we're experiencing something together here. Uh, I I get your perspective where you're coming from, whether I've got shared laughter with you and you're from another country or whatever. So, of course, that's gonna uh increase camaraderie for people.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

One of my favorite parts in the book um related to this, especially, you talked about the four P's. Can you can you can you describe those for us? Yeah, because I think that that fits in with what we're talking about right now, I feel like.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

So I I've been brought into a bunch of different organizations to do either talks or workshops on humor. And there's a lot of well-meaning leaders who are like, this would be fun for my employees to do this. And so they set this kind of fun thing up for their employees to do, and then they kind of, you know, maybe pop in for a little bit, or maybe they stand in the back and kind of observe. Um, and that doesn't have the effect that they think it does. And so if you're in a leadership position, your participation in any of these kind of fun, uh, funny, humorous things is much more important than your permission for them to use humor in their work. And so I I then I I give kind of this four Ps formula. You could just think permission plus participation equals psychological safety. I almost had four P's. But you know, but it's perfect. If psychological can have a silent P, so can safety. All right. Um, but it it really does. Um one of the in in in my podcast and in a lot of workshops I do, um, I ask people the question, what's something weird about you that you love or something weird that makes you happy? And then people share in pairs or or share with me. Um and I I I love that uh that question and and that kind of group activity uh because well, I'll I'll give you first I'll give you mine. One of mine is um I love the smell of my dog's feet. Uh they smell like free Frito's chips. I know that's probably kind of gross to some people, but um, but for me, that's like just kind of a weird thing about me. Um and I've had people share all sorts of stuff uh from various industries. I had this um surgeon share that to reward herself after passing her boards, she lined chocolate chips all around her bathtub, and still to this day, that's how she rewards herself. She just one by one eats chocolate chips off the side of her bathtub. Um but that question, and her fellow surgeons were like, don't you own a bowl? Like, I hope you keep a clean bathroom. But but uh uh but that question, um, Harvard Business Review did a um a study and they asked uh teams who were tasked to come up with creative solutions to complex problems. They said, you know, for one team, just get into problem-solving mode. Another team, you know, first everyone go around and share your greatest accomplishment and then get into it. And some other teams, uh, first everyone share like an embarrassing moment from your life. And that embarrassing moment group outperformed the other two groups by 25%. 25% more solutions generated and more creative solutions because there's something magical that happens when we let our guard down just a little bit with the people we're working with and show that, you know, silly or goofy kind of side of us that maybe only our siblings or our partners or kids get to see um at work. And and that it creates a sense of psychological safety. Like once I know, I had a vice president of a bank uh during this um this part of a workshop share with people that like, you know, something I haven't told a lot of people is that me and my husband uh do like Shrek cosplay at conventions. He dresses as like Shrek and I dress up as Fiona, and she got a standing ovation. Her team was like, this is amazing, you know. But all of a sudden I feel a little bit safer to be myself around that vice president, you know? Um, and and you had mentioned that you know, humor is such a part of who you are, and that's the way it is for a lot of it. It's a it's a part of our identity, and we spend a third of our lives at work. So to deny ourselves humor for a third of our lives is to crush the human spirit and part of who we are.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah, I I uh I'm imagining some people thinking I don't know, I guess uh what about the people who don't maybe don't see the value of humor in the I'm imagining some people thinking um it gets carried too far, right? So I guess can you distinguish between the humor that that connects people versus humor that distances? Like what are the things to look out for if you're trying to trying trying to bring humor into your back into your life?

SPEAKER_03 34:15

Yeah, yeah. And to me, it's two separate problem, you know, two separate problems to solve for. One is does humor is humor beneficial, or you know, people who just doubt that this is even helpful. Um but then there's the other of like, well, it's a slippery slope, like you could risk an uh you know uh offending or alienating people, marginalizing people, that kind of stuff. Um uh and so yes, humor and fun at work are great tools for any organization. I would say though, um humor is like the sweetener of life. And you don't sustain yourself just on sugar, right? We need the basics, we need uh protein and vegetables and all that kind of stuff, just like any organization needs trust and communication, um, uh strong commitment to values and mission. Um, so I think you start there, but then organizations that then add humor on top of it can get to uh a next greater level. The Great Places to Work um uh survey found that the the biggest uh survey question they had that distinguished a good place to work versus a great place to work was do I work in a fun environment? More than any other question they had. Um and that's because they've already established we are a good place to work, we've got the foundation, but what could take us uh another level? Um but then as as we talk about like, well, what types of humor help and and what types of humor hurt? Um if you picture like a triangle uh uh with the base being um you know the largest and the tip obviously being the smallest, kind of like the food pyramid. Um, think about using humor this way. You know, on one side of the one axis of the triangle is like the um most risky way you can use humor from like the least risky to the most, and the other side is how much practice and and technique it it takes to use it. Well, the base of the pyramid where it's the lowest amount of risk and takes the least amount of of practice on your behalf is humor about yourself and your own experience.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

When I come to work and I'm you know talking about uh how clumsy I am because I spilled something on my shirt or something like that, the chances that I'm gonna offend someone are so low. Um, then the next is uh humor about shared experiences. So when we're talking about, you know, um the the project that we had that didn't go well or the construction that's going on at our at our office that's just you know pain in the butt for everybody right now, that kind of stuff. That kind of humor really brings people together. And typically you, you know, you you run the uh a little bit greater risk of alienating or offending people, but usually these are things we're all experiencing together, the pet peeves of of our work situations, that kind of stuff. When we start getting into humor about other people and their experiences, much higher level of of risk there, and a higher level of you better be really good at doing at like professional comedian level in order to not alienate people.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

And and even then you might like I know plenty of professional comedians who exactly at roasts who are hilarious, but definitely but but you you make such a great point, Paul. And like I'm imagining like and I you you kind of started out saying this about the values of wearing like like if if you have your values right as an organization and you're like if you are if if you are clearly a respectful team, right? You're yeah, you you don't talk about other people or don't talk down about people, then when you when then when you do say something humorous you're less likely to say anything disparaging about someone else in a funny way, right? You're gonna say something like you said, funny about you, self-deprecating. And I think you even I think you make the point in the book, like it's don't don't always be self-deprecating. Self-enhancing is a is a really important aspect of humor too, right? Which is which is a really good good uh practice as well.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

Yeah, if if you're going to use uh self-deprecating humor at work, uh the the biggest rule for me is like don't kill your skills. So um exactly like I I mentioned, you know, uh making fun of me, you know, uh with a stain on my shirt, probably fine if I'm an accountant, you know, like ah yeah, and jelly donut, whatever, but not if I'm a surgeon. You know, nobody nobody wants to hear like, oh, I'm just all butterfingers today, like right before their vasectomy. You know, like that uh so so if it's if it's about skills necessary to do your job, you probably don't want to make fun of that. But anything else is kind of fair game. But I will say what you said before about um uh the the way that humor is used in an organization, your workplace humor will match your culture. So if you have a culture where you let people get away with disparaging each other, with uh uh alienating, ostracizing, being rude and hurtful and mistreating each other, that will come out in employees' use of humor. If you have an organization culture that um you nip those things in the bud, those things aren't accepted, um, and people generally uh like to collaborate, build each other up, and have a shared uh sense of values, usually the humor will follow along with that culture. And and in an organization like that, that already uh is good and we communicate with each other, we treat each other respectfully, and we value each other's opinions, when someone does slip up with humor, typically they take care of it themselves. Like, oh, I had no idea, let me apologize, you know, that kind of thing. But in a toxic workplace, you may get toxic humor. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah, yeah, I can totally picture that. If um I guess what's one thing that you know, listeners who are listening, people who are listening today and they want to start, you know, directing their own comedy, what's what's what's just one thing they should walk away with that they can start doing today?

SPEAKER_03 40:30

I I give you one for themselves and one for the workplace. Okay. Um for themselves, uh today, for the next seven days, just start down writing down three things you found funny or amusing each day for the next week. And people who did that for the for a week uh increased their overall happiness and decreased depressive symptoms for up to six months. That is that activity right there um can start to rewire your brain and train you to start looking for those funny things uh more often. Um and then a similar activity for the workplace would be uh get a humor jar. So so much of the humor in our lives just happens spontaneously. It happens, someone does or says something funny, and then we forget uh and our lives go on. But we know from positive psychology research that if we uh can savor moments of joy, we get a huge psychological boost from that. So um have a jar in a meeting room or a break room somewhere where employees are. And when funny things happen, and you could do this at home too with your family, and when funny things happen, have slips of paper there, people write down the funny thing, put it in the jar. And then depending on how many people you have doing this, you could before each meeting revisit one of those funny things or at the end of each month or a quarter and relive all these hilarious moments. And so now you're double dipping on the positive psychology of now we're reminiscing about funny things.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

The whole the whole shared experience thing is is uh such a great place to to start, I think, too. The in in your in your book, one of the first things I think you say is are you at one point early in the book, you're encouraging people to do different things to kind of get back in touch with their humor, and you and you say, um, read funny books, right? And I actually, or you know, read read things that are funny. So actually, um I Googled like what are the funniest books ever written, right? And and and there was one that was pretty highly rated that I'd never heard of. And um and I started listening to it on Spotify or Audible. And it totally cracked me up, and I'm like, how have I never heard about this? But it was it was some story about um about Jesus' best friend when he was a kid called Biff. I don't know if you've heard of it. I can't think of the name of the book right now. But but it's like it's like the the the the the life of Jesus as seen through his childhood best friend, and it is so funny. Um it's very long, and that's why I haven't finished it yet, but it and you keep thinking it can't be this funny forever. Right. It keeps being pretty funny, right? Like it's um, but it was great because it did. Um I found myself cracking up laughing, laughing out loud, and that was that was a great I forget the name of that book.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

Um uh is it the gospel according to Biff? Is that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Something like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Yeah, um yeah, that I I should I should read that. I haven't read that, um, but I've heard that's a hilarious book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

It's like a 15-hour audiobook, so it's it's a big one, but it's it's very funny.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Hey man, if if it's fifty hey, if it's 15 hours, if it makes you laugh, I mean that's that's a good one to like do house cleaning and that kind of stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

So I I like to ask guests what what book would you recommend that everyone should read?

SPEAKER_03 43:51

Well, yeah, I mean, I I love to add humor into my reading um so that it doesn't like my reading list isn't. Curated by Ted Tox all the time. So I would say Yes Please by Amy Polar. Great book. I love it. Great book. Really funny. If you it's it's really great as just a regular read, but also if you do the Audible, then all of her friends, like you know, Seth Myers and Maya Rudolph and all those people do their own voices in it. And so it's it's a really fun read. Like that's a really good one. Um you know, anything by David Sederis, um, Running with Scissors, um, by um Augustine Burroughs um is one of my favorite all-time books. So yeah, I mean, I I could I could go on, but those are those are great.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Okay, yeah, and and Amy Polar. I I love Amy Polar, but I've not read that book. Um so I'm definitely gonna add that to my you know yeah, I'll definitely do it on Audible. Um so I can I can I love it when they're narrated by the author, right? And they have yeah, other other voices in there. Um okay, how can people how can people find you if they like a copy of your book or they want to book you as a speaker or just want to follow you?

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Yeah, just go to thehumorhabit.com and uh all of it's there. The you know uh booking me to speak, the podcast, and uh the book. So yeah, check me out. And I'm also the only Paul Ozencup on earth that I know of, so I'm pretty easy to find, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

I didn't see another one when I was googling you. Yeah, yeah. And the the book, the book really is good. Um, and I really did read all of it.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

It's yeah, it sounds like it. You I mean you look you like came with receipts. I was like, okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Yeah, yeah, it was it was good. Um and you know, you know, I uh started reading it just to prepare for this, but but I actually really liked it um and and got a lot of tips out of it. I think I mentioned when I was when you and I were prepping for this, the what do you call it, the comic triple? Um even in our conversation, and and I used at the very beginning, and that's something I definitely think about a lot now.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

So yeah, it's well the yeah, the comic triple, you uh even in the the bio that you introduced me, uh Paul's work has been highlighted on the Today Show, the New York Times, and his mom's refrigerator, you know, just two expected things, one unexpected or funny thing. You'll see that in marketing all the time, but that is such a simple way for people who, when you talked about earlier, people who are like, I'm not that funny. That is a formula anyone can use in you know to introduce yourself in writing, uh in whatever you're doing at work.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

It's a good one. So, in closing, uh, just want to bring us back to your original uh quote, right? Don't live your life as an actor in a drama just to teach, just to reach the end, to find out that you were the director, and and hey, it could have been a comedy. So yeah, I encourage everyone to heed Paul's advice and do more than just act in the movie that you're cast in, encouraging you to uh to actually get behind the camera and direct it and make it make it funny. So, Paul, thanks so much. Really enjoyed the conversation. Um, and uh I hope our listeners check you out because it's some some funny stuff and uh your podcast is great too. So thanks for joining and uh thanks everyone. We'll talk next time.